Discussion:
[ANNOUNCE] Media summit Report - October, 17-18 2014 - Düsseldorf
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Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2014-10-21 14:53:16 UTC
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Raw Message
This report is also available in html at:
http://linuxtv.org/news.php?entry=2014-10-21.mchehab

In the name of the organizing committee, I'd like to thank you all for
being there with us during those two days.

There were several good discussions that happened during the meeting,
aimed to improve even more the Linux media subsystem.

Also, it was agreed during the meeting that we'll try to reach an even
broader audience on the next events. So we're counting with all you
on our next year's event(s).

Thanks!
Mauro

-

Attendees, in alphabetical order:

NAME - EMAIL - ORGANIZATION
Brad Love - ***@hauppauge.com - Hauppauge
Chris Kohn - ***@xilinx.com - Xilinx
Friedrich Schwittay - ***@pctvsystems.com - PCTV
Guennaddi Liakhovetski - ***@gmx.de - Intel
Hans de Goede - ***@redhat.com - Red hat
Hans Verkuil - ***@xs4all.nl - Cisco
Henning Garbers - ***@pctvsystems.com - PCTV
Johannes Stezenbach - ***@linuxtv.org - LinuxTV
Julien Beraud - ***@parrot.com - Parrot (www.parrot.com)
Kamil Debski - ***@samsung.com - Samsung
Laurent Pinchart - ***@ideasonboard.com - Ideas on board
Lucas Stach - ***@pengutronix.de - Pengutronix
Mauro Carvalho Chehab - ***@osg.samsung.com - Samsung
Mike Krufky - ***@linuxtv.org - Samsung
Nicolas Dufresne - ***@collabora.com - Collabora
Pawel Osciak - ***@osciak.com - Google
Peter Griffin - ***@linaro.org - Linaro/ST
Philipp Zabel - ***@pengutronix.de - Pengutronix
Ralph Metzler - ***@metzlerbros.de - Meltzler Brothers
Ricardo Ribalda Delgado - ***@qtec.com - Qtechnolgy A/S
Sakari Ailus - ***@linux.intel.com - Intel

Thursday:
========

1) Configuration stores - Hans Verkuil
===================================

- Need to report which settings/controls were applied

- Drivers needs to be able to report full/limited Android CameraHAL v3 support
(full means full synchronization support)

- We probably need a mechanism to be able to remove (free) config stores

- Can we use APPLY(0) instead of CLOSE?

- Per buffer or per frame configuration? Note: there is no notion of frame IDs
yet in V4L2.

- Would be nice to be able to disable APPLY, perhaps a flag for the core similar
to HAS STORE

2) Android camera HAL v3 - Sakari Ailus
====================================

http://www.retiisi.org.uk/v4l2/foil/android-camera-hal-v3-v4l2.pdf
- Capture requests queued lead to returned buffers in order, best effort to make
per-buffer configuration apply correctly needed

- Capture requests/returned buffers do not map directly to QBUF/DQBUF because
multiple buffers in different formats may be produced from a single request.
Some outputs could be implemented in software, e.g. multiple YUV outputs when
hardware simply does not contain as many.

- Should statistical data be returned in a separate video buffer queue? Might be
associated via sequence number, probably separate frame ID better

- 3A library input: frame metadata, depends on sensor, might be in-frame or
out-of band. If possible, separate buffer queue prepared to get to it early.

- HAL v3 needs Start Of Frame and End Of Frame events

- If there is no hardware mechanism for synchronization, apply sensor settings
as soon as possible after SOF and hope for the best. It is possible to verify
the timing has been successful in the user space.

- Sensor settings and ISP settings applied at different points in time, as
sensor settings usally take effect on the following frame

- Sensors may implement all or parts of the ISP themselves. It may not be
feasible to implement hal v3 full profile for such sensors.

- Start of Exposure events not to be implemented in the kernel. HAL must
calculate the event time based on other available information, such as end of
frame (or start of frame event) and other frame timing parameters.

- Some metadata tags could be mapped to V4L2 (compound) controls, they are
associated with a single capture request. Some metadata tags (statistics) are
produced from video buffer queues. Other metadata tags originate from HAL.

- Needs a guarantee that a single capture request will produce all buffers
requested by it with the request's parameters, needs per-buffer configuration,
associating buffers with a certain frame.

- A working halv3 implementation for UVC (limited profile) would be nice to have

- A working halv3 implementation on top of some hardware (full profile) is
needed to test assumptions

- ISP configuration may be implemented by controls or via an output video buffer
queue

- V4L2: independent queues (possibly multiple video device nodes), frame
synchronization needed when queueing the buffers, drivers are expected to always
return those buffers, possibly with an error flag, HALv3: multiple streams are
synchronized via capture requests

- Requests may contain buffers for every queue or only some queues.

- All buffers captured as part of a request must originate from the same sensor
frame. Other behaviour is not allowed.

- All buffers have start of exposure timestamps (approximated by start of frame
timestamp - exposure time)

- Frames from different capture queues can be associated using sequence numbers.

- ISPs are typically connected to a fast bus, and mostly it's possible to
synchronise changing the configuration per frame reliably. Should this be
extended to sensors? In that case, the sensor driver would need timing
information from the ISP. Sensors are typically connected over a slow bus such
as i2c so error handling would also be needed. The alternative is to leave
sensor synchronisation up to the user space.

- Further discussion

- How are buffers and controls from different device nodes associated as a
single request by the driver?

- Applying parameters from sub-device nodes

3) DVB API improvements - Mauro Carvalho Chehab
============================================

- New ioctl needed for retrieving the available PLP (physical layer pipe)that
can be read back from frontend's detection. Eventually get_property might be
used, but it could be too big for that.

- How to support devices with multiple demodulators that could have a common
PES/SEC filter block dynamically shared between them? Currently, the API assumes
that each demod has a fixed number of filters.

- It is desired to add mmap() and DMABUF support. The best seems to use
videobuf2 for buffer delivery, but how to avoid V4L2 dependencies? It seems it
should reuse memops but not videobuf2-core, reimplement queue/dequeue, state
handling, see what should be shared.

- TBD: How to improve integration of DVB frontends, demuxes and CAM drivers with
other media components via the media controller.

Work plan:

- Make a more detailed list of requirements for DVB - to be done by the DVB
developers;

- Send patches for PLP table retrival by userspace - Hauppauge/PCTV;

- Send a proposal for DVB-C2 - Ralph Meltzler;

- After the above steps is completed, we should discuss between the DVB
developers about who will be doing what.

4) Media development process - Hans Verkuil
========================================

- Fixes are written for an upcoming release typically based on findings from rc1

- Fixes should get higher priority

- Fixes must be upstreamed by rc3

- Patches that go to the fixes tree are not applied to master. This is because
the fixes sent to Linus will reappear from upstream, eventually to master branch
as well.

- Use 'GIT FIXES' for urgent bug fixes (Hans will send V4L2 submitting patches
text (after updating) to Pawel for wiki inclusion)

- Consider github as git repo for better failover.

- Co-locating with other conferences creates schedule conflicts

- Too costly to move before/after conferences (bosses will only pay for the
meeting, not for the conference)

- Making the mini-summit open for all would be an interesting experiment.

- But we shouldn't charge for the mini-summit.

- Next year: kernel summit in South Korea, so the media mini-summit will be in
Korea as well.

5) V4L2 raw codec API - Pawel Osciak
=================================

- The current codec API is suitable for codecs which perform all the stages of
encoding or decoding.

- Newer codec hardware implementations expect the CPU to perform less computing
intensive parts of the codec.

- VA-API like model: codec split between user and kernel spaces

- Some vendors provide closed user space codec libraries. Yuck.

- Bit stream formats are vendor independent, so the parsing of the bit stream
should be as well.

- Processing must be performed per-slice. This allows lower latency.

- Decoding to be implemented in libv4l. Multiple hardware devices may benefit
from the stream parsing functionality this way.

- GStreamer plugins already implements stream parsing. License?

6) Multiple timestamps - Ricardo Ribalda
=====================================

- Some Industrial Machines require metadata about the state of the machine when
the image is taken

- When this data is small enough (~32 bits) and it is similar to a timestamp (ex.
encoder data) we might use the timecode struct, already part of vb2_buffer

- Sometimes the metadata can be much bigger. An example has been shown regarding
an optical grader of potatoes. In this sytem, the spinoflex (conveyor belt with
fingers) has a state of around 1000bits

- This information does not fit the event data structure and share the same
problems as the camera statistics, therefore common solutions should be used.

- The proposal of creating a new ioctl for this (GET_META) has been generally
rejected.
Instead two options have been propossed depending of the size:

- A) Configuration stores are an option as well. A single array control could be
used for this.

- B)Video buffers could be used. This is very much analogous to sensor metadata
after all.

- Laurent pointed out that A single interface to pass statistics to the user
space is preferred, independently of the size of the statistics.
The common consensous seems to be that:

- If the data is transferred to the memory, video buffers are probably the right
solution.

- For 1000 bits, compound controls are very likely the best option.

- Image statistics of tens or hundreds of kilobytes should use a video buffer
queue.

Work plan:

- Hans will make sure that the configuration store can support this usercase

- We will define a generic fourcc for statistics

- Libv4l will be in charge of converting the vendor specific statistics into
this generic format

Friday:
======

7) Runtime reconfiguration of pipelines - Chris & Laurent
======================================================

- Xilinx need to support adding any type of daughterboard to their FPGA
pipeline: userspace needs to load a DT overlay dynamically for that
daughterboard. Note that the Xilinx driver won't know which devices are on that
daughterboard since it is the customer/thirdparty that makes it.

- Partial reconfiguration: ideally only the IP blocks that will be replaced need
to be removed in the MC: this is complex.

- Can we make an initial implementation to just tear down everything and rebuild
it with the new IP instead of the old? Less flexible, but much easier to do
until we can change the MC on the fly.

- Option: perhaps just disable entities instead of deleting them. But it's a bit
of a hack, and we should just bite the bullet and add proper support.

- Result: implement everything tear down first. Later work on how to delete
entities on the fly.

- Create a virtual MC device driver: what should be there? - Hans Verkuil

- sensor, at least two DMA engines giving two different formats

- Bayer support?

- different input ports (csi/parallel), cropping/scaler block

- configurable pipeline (including m2m device)

- flash, lens

8) Hierarchical media devices - Philipp Zabel
==========================================

- Philipp gave a presentation about complex media devices that could be better
represented via hierarchical trees. The discussions about that happened
together with the next topic.

9) Highly reconfigurable hardware - Julien Beraud
==============================================

- 44 sub-devices connected with an interconnect.

- As long as formats match, any sub-device could be connected to any other
sub-device through a link.

- The result is 44 * 44 links at worst.

- A switch sub-device proposed as the solution to model the interconnect. The
sub-devices are connected to the switch sub-devices through the hardware links
that connect to the interconnect.

- The switch would be controlled through new IOCTLs S_ROUTING and G_ROUTING.

- Patches available:
http://git.linuxtv.org/cgit.cgi/pinchartl/media.git/log/?h=xilinx-wip

10) libdvbv5 - Mauro Carvalho Chehab
================================

- Part of libv4l v1.6.0

- Most applications still use DVBv3 API.

- Contains MPEG-TS decoders for program information.

- Compilation options to choose different parts of the library to be built. Not
everyone needs everything.

- The user may want to use custom replacements for parts of the library,
especially for parsing tables like EPG.

- The library still needs the MPEG-TS parsers for channel parsing. If the
MPEG-TS parser isn't part of the library, the functionality would need to be
available elsewhere using the same interface.

- libdvbv5 license right now GPL, agreement on license change to LGPL exists
from all contributors.

11) DVB tuners - Mauro Carvalho Chehab
==================================

- Explained the old hybrid model and the new model used by the tuners and the
odds with the current approach

- It was also explained that I2C MUX is a need, in order to help fixing the
problems with suspend/resume inside the subsystem

- Some concerns arrised if the new model actually works or not for analog TV, as
currently there's no tuner using it for analog

- It was agreed that the new model is the way to go, but it requires a carefully
review, and changes should not be done on all tuners at once, but, instead, in
steps

12) Other DVB issues - Mauro Carvalho Chehab
========================================

- Better information on device capabilities is needed in the user space, as,
currently, there are very few bits available for DVB caps at fe_caps enum, used
by FE_GET_INFO. Also, some standards can have lots of options (ISDB-T has 28),
and reporting there to userspace using bits is actually not a good option.

- The main issue with fe_caps is that, currently, there are only two bits left,
and this is not enough to represent the current capabilities of
modern delivery system's frontends.
a a few examples of missing things that we want to be able to report, we have:

- Ralph reminded that there are DVB-C/C2 devices that only support automatic
bitrate detection, and he is even unsure if it is possible to retrieve the
detected bitrate from such frontends. So, we need a way to allow
"CAN_AUTO_SYMBOL_RATE". That's bad, as applications like w_scan may run several
times over the same symbol rates, and may actually be detecting the same
transponder several times.

- Complex delivery systems like ISDB-T have some combinations that aren't
very common, and some chipset providers decided to not implement (Mauro). For
example, mb86a20s frontend doesn't support guard interval equal to 1/32.

- The agreeded strategy is to write a new ioctl that, once the delivery system
is set, it will return what are the valid values/ranges that a given frontend
property can support. In order to optimize the drivers, the core could pre-fill
it with all that it is supported by a given delivery system, letting the driver
to override it, disabling the features that aren't supported.

- Mkruky proposed to add a new ioctl (FE_GET_PROPS_INFO - or something like
that) that would return all the valid values for a given property for the
current delivery system.

- Old DVBv3 APIs that weren't used anymore should be clearly documented as
deprecated

13) Dead pixels: Ricardo Ribalda
============================

- Position of dead pixels + classification of dead pixels (dead/lazy/others)

- Store this on a flash: common format?

- No problem with the dead pixel proposal, but it needs to be used upstream
somewhere before it can be used. Ricardo's driver is unlikely to be upstreamed.
Not sure if adding it to vivid is sufficent.

- Suggestion: omap3 should have it, try getting a beagleboard/bone + sensor and
implementing it there.

- sensor/module metadata: needs an RFC first.

14) Multiple selections - Ricardo Ribalda
=====================================

- Hans's patch "videodev2.h: add v4l2_ctrl_selection compound control type"
implements selection controls. This replaces the selection interface, and
existing drivers should be converted.

- Pad information missing from the RFC patchset.

- Multiple selections will not be available on selections interface.

- Hans stopped working on this, but welcomes someone else continuing with it.
Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2014-10-21 15:26:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Em Tue, 21 Oct 2014 12:53:16 -0200
Post by Mauro Carvalho Chehab
http://linuxtv.org/news.php?entry=2014-10-21.mchehab
In the name of the organizing committee, I'd like to thank you all for
being there with us during those two days.
There were several good discussions that happened during the meeting,
aimed to improve even more the Linux media subsystem.
Also, it was agreed during the meeting that we'll try to reach an even
broader audience on the next events. So we're counting with all you
on our next year's event(s).
Thanks!
Mauro
-
NAME - EMAIL - ORGANIZATION
========
1) Configuration stores - Hans Verkuil
===================================
- Need to report which settings/controls were applied
- Drivers needs to be able to report full/limited Android CameraHAL v3 support
(full means full synchronization support)
- We probably need a mechanism to be able to remove (free) config stores
- Can we use APPLY(0) instead of CLOSE?
- Per buffer or per frame configuration? Note: there is no notion of frame IDs
yet in V4L2.
- Would be nice to be able to disable APPLY, perhaps a flag for the core similar
to HAS STORE
2) Android camera HAL v3 - Sakari Ailus
====================================
http://www.retiisi.org.uk/v4l2/foil/android-camera-hal-v3-v4l2.pdf
- Capture requests queued lead to returned buffers in order, best effort to make
per-buffer configuration apply correctly needed
- Capture requests/returned buffers do not map directly to QBUF/DQBUF because
multiple buffers in different formats may be produced from a single request.
Some outputs could be implemented in software, e.g. multiple YUV outputs when
hardware simply does not contain as many.
- Should statistical data be returned in a separate video buffer queue? Might be
associated via sequence number, probably separate frame ID better
- 3A library input: frame metadata, depends on sensor, might be in-frame or
out-of band. If possible, separate buffer queue prepared to get to it early.
- HAL v3 needs Start Of Frame and End Of Frame events
- If there is no hardware mechanism for synchronization, apply sensor settings
as soon as possible after SOF and hope for the best. It is possible to verify
the timing has been successful in the user space.
- Sensor settings and ISP settings applied at different points in time, as
sensor settings usally take effect on the following frame
- Sensors may implement all or parts of the ISP themselves. It may not be
feasible to implement hal v3 full profile for such sensors.
- Start of Exposure events not to be implemented in the kernel. HAL must
calculate the event time based on other available information, such as end of
frame (or start of frame event) and other frame timing parameters.
- Some metadata tags could be mapped to V4L2 (compound) controls, they are
associated with a single capture request. Some metadata tags (statistics) are
produced from video buffer queues. Other metadata tags originate from HAL.
- Needs a guarantee that a single capture request will produce all buffers
requested by it with the request's parameters, needs per-buffer configuration,
associating buffers with a certain frame.
- A working halv3 implementation for UVC (limited profile) would be nice to have
- A working halv3 implementation on top of some hardware (full profile) is
needed to test assumptions
- ISP configuration may be implemented by controls or via an output video buffer
queue
- V4L2: independent queues (possibly multiple video device nodes), frame
synchronization needed when queueing the buffers, drivers are expected to always
return those buffers, possibly with an error flag, HALv3: multiple streams are
synchronized via capture requests
- Requests may contain buffers for every queue or only some queues.
- All buffers captured as part of a request must originate from the same sensor
frame. Other behaviour is not allowed.
- All buffers have start of exposure timestamps (approximated by start of frame
timestamp - exposure time)
- Frames from different capture queues can be associated using sequence numbers.
- ISPs are typically connected to a fast bus, and mostly it's possible to
synchronise changing the configuration per frame reliably. Should this be
extended to sensors? In that case, the sensor driver would need timing
information from the ISP. Sensors are typically connected over a slow bus such
as i2c so error handling would also be needed. The alternative is to leave
sensor synchronisation up to the user space.
- Further discussion
- How are buffers and controls from different device nodes associated as a
single request by the driver?
- Applying parameters from sub-device nodes
3) DVB API improvements - Mauro Carvalho Chehab
============================================
- New ioctl needed for retrieving the available PLP (physical layer pipe)that
can be read back from frontend's detection. Eventually get_property might be
used, but it could be too big for that.
- How to support devices with multiple demodulators that could have a common
PES/SEC filter block dynamically shared between them? Currently, the API assumes
that each demod has a fixed number of filters.
- It is desired to add mmap() and DMABUF support. The best seems to use
videobuf2 for buffer delivery, but how to avoid V4L2 dependencies? It seems it
should reuse memops but not videobuf2-core, reimplement queue/dequeue, state
handling, see what should be shared.
- TBD: How to improve integration of DVB frontends, demuxes and CAM drivers with
other media components via the media controller.
- Make a more detailed list of requirements for DVB - to be done by the DVB
developers;
- Send patches for PLP table retrival by userspace - Hauppauge/PCTV;
- Send a proposal for DVB-C2 - Ralph Meltzler;
- After the above steps is completed, we should discuss between the DVB
developers about who will be doing what.
4) Media development process - Hans Verkuil
========================================
- Fixes are written for an upcoming release typically based on findings from rc1
- Fixes should get higher priority
- Fixes must be upstreamed by rc3
- Patches that go to the fixes tree are not applied to master. This is because
the fixes sent to Linus will reappear from upstream, eventually to master branch
as well.
- Use 'GIT FIXES' for urgent bug fixes (Hans will send V4L2 submitting patches
text (after updating) to Pawel for wiki inclusion)
- Consider github as git repo for better failover.
- Co-locating with other conferences creates schedule conflicts
- Too costly to move before/after conferences (bosses will only pay for the
meeting, not for the conference)
- Making the mini-summit open for all would be an interesting experiment.
- But we shouldn't charge for the mini-summit.
- Next year: kernel summit in South Korea, so the media mini-summit will be in
Korea as well.
5) V4L2 raw codec API - Pawel Osciak
=================================
- The current codec API is suitable for codecs which perform all the stages of
encoding or decoding.
- Newer codec hardware implementations expect the CPU to perform less computing
intensive parts of the codec.
- VA-API like model: codec split between user and kernel spaces
- Some vendors provide closed user space codec libraries. Yuck.
- Bit stream formats are vendor independent, so the parsing of the bit stream
should be as well.
- Processing must be performed per-slice. This allows lower latency.
- Decoding to be implemented in libv4l. Multiple hardware devices may benefit
from the stream parsing functionality this way.
- GStreamer plugins already implements stream parsing. License?
6) Multiple timestamps - Ricardo Ribalda
=====================================
- Some Industrial Machines require metadata about the state of the machine when
the image is taken
- When this data is small enough (~32 bits) and it is similar to a timestamp (ex.
encoder data) we might use the timecode struct, already part of vb2_buffer
- Sometimes the metadata can be much bigger. An example has been shown regarding
an optical grader of potatoes. In this sytem, the spinoflex (conveyor belt with
fingers) has a state of around 1000bits
- This information does not fit the event data structure and share the same
problems as the camera statistics, therefore common solutions should be used.
- The proposal of creating a new ioctl for this (GET_META) has been generally
rejected.
- A) Configuration stores are an option as well. A single array control could be
used for this.
- B)Video buffers could be used. This is very much analogous to sensor metadata
after all.
- Laurent pointed out that A single interface to pass statistics to the user
space is preferred, independently of the size of the statistics.
- If the data is transferred to the memory, video buffers are probably the right
solution.
- For 1000 bits, compound controls are very likely the best option.
- Image statistics of tens or hundreds of kilobytes should use a video buffer
queue.
- Hans will make sure that the configuration store can support this usercase
- We will define a generic fourcc for statistics
- Libv4l will be in charge of converting the vendor specific statistics into
this generic format
======
7) Runtime reconfiguration of pipelines - Chris & Laurent
======================================================
- Xilinx need to support adding any type of daughterboard to their FPGA
pipeline: userspace needs to load a DT overlay dynamically for that
daughterboard. Note that the Xilinx driver won't know which devices are on that
daughterboard since it is the customer/thirdparty that makes it.
- Partial reconfiguration: ideally only the IP blocks that will be replaced need
to be removed in the MC: this is complex.
- Can we make an initial implementation to just tear down everything and rebuild
it with the new IP instead of the old? Less flexible, but much easier to do
until we can change the MC on the fly.
- Option: perhaps just disable entities instead of deleting them. But it's a bit
of a hack, and we should just bite the bullet and add proper support.
- Result: implement everything tear down first. Later work on how to delete
entities on the fly.
- Create a virtual MC device driver: what should be there? - Hans Verkuil
- sensor, at least two DMA engines giving two different formats
- Bayer support?
- different input ports (csi/parallel), cropping/scaler block
- configurable pipeline (including m2m device)
- flash, lens
8) Hierarchical media devices - Philipp Zabel
==========================================
- Philipp gave a presentation about complex media devices that could be better
represented via hierarchical trees. The discussions about that happened
together with the next topic.
9) Highly reconfigurable hardware - Julien Beraud
==============================================
- 44 sub-devices connected with an interconnect.
- As long as formats match, any sub-device could be connected to any other
sub-device through a link.
- The result is 44 * 44 links at worst.
- A switch sub-device proposed as the solution to model the interconnect. The
sub-devices are connected to the switch sub-devices through the hardware links
that connect to the interconnect.
- The switch would be controlled through new IOCTLs S_ROUTING and G_ROUTING.
http://git.linuxtv.org/cgit.cgi/pinchartl/media.git/log/?h=xilinx-wip
10) libdvbv5 - Mauro Carvalho Chehab
================================
- Part of libv4l v1.6.0
- Most applications still use DVBv3 API.
- Contains MPEG-TS decoders for program information.
- Compilation options to choose different parts of the library to be built. Not
everyone needs everything.
- The user may want to use custom replacements for parts of the library,
especially for parsing tables like EPG.
- The library still needs the MPEG-TS parsers for channel parsing. If the
MPEG-TS parser isn't part of the library, the functionality would need to be
available elsewhere using the same interface.
- libdvbv5 license right now GPL, agreement on license change to LGPL exists
from all contributors.
11) DVB tuners - Mauro Carvalho Chehab
==================================
- Explained the old hybrid model and the new model used by the tuners and the
odds with the current approach
- It was also explained that I2C MUX is a need, in order to help fixing the
problems with suspend/resume inside the subsystem
- Some concerns arrised if the new model actually works or not for analog TV, as
currently there's no tuner using it for analog
- It was agreed that the new model is the way to go, but it requires a carefully
review, and changes should not be done on all tuners at once, but, instead, in
steps
12) Other DVB issues - Mauro Carvalho Chehab
========================================
- Better information on device capabilities is needed in the user space, as,
currently, there are very few bits available for DVB caps at fe_caps enum, used
by FE_GET_INFO. Also, some standards can have lots of options (ISDB-T has 28),
and reporting there to userspace using bits is actually not a good option.
- The main issue with fe_caps is that, currently, there are only two bits left,
and this is not enough to represent the current capabilities of
modern delivery system's frontends.
- Ralph reminded that there are DVB-C/C2 devices that only support automatic
bitrate detection, and he is even unsure if it is possible to retrieve the
detected bitrate from such frontends. So, we need a way to allow
"CAN_AUTO_SYMBOL_RATE". That's bad, as applications like w_scan may run several
times over the same symbol rates, and may actually be detecting the same
transponder several times.
- Complex delivery systems like ISDB-T have some combinations that aren't
very common, and some chipset providers decided to not implement (Mauro). For
example, mb86a20s frontend doesn't support guard interval equal to 1/32.
- The agreeded strategy is to write a new ioctl that, once the delivery system
is set, it will return what are the valid values/ranges that a given frontend
property can support. In order to optimize the drivers, the core could pre-fill
it with all that it is supported by a given delivery system, letting the driver
to override it, disabling the features that aren't supported.
- Mkruky proposed to add a new ioctl (FE_GET_PROPS_INFO - or something like
that) that would return all the valid values for a given property for the
current delivery system.
- Old DVBv3 APIs that weren't used anymore should be clearly documented as
deprecated
13) Dead pixels: Ricardo Ribalda
============================
- Position of dead pixels + classification of dead pixels (dead/lazy/others)
- Store this on a flash: common format?
- No problem with the dead pixel proposal, but it needs to be used upstream
somewhere before it can be used. Ricardo's driver is unlikely to be upstreamed.
Not sure if adding it to vivid is sufficent.
- Suggestion: omap3 should have it, try getting a beagleboard/bone + sensor and
implementing it there.
- sensor/module metadata: needs an RFC first.
14) Multiple selections - Ricardo Ribalda
=====================================
- Hans's patch "videodev2.h: add v4l2_ctrl_selection compound control type"
implements selection controls. This replaces the selection interface, and
existing drivers should be converted.
- Pad information missing from the RFC patchset.
- Multiple selections will not be available on selections interface.
- Hans stopped working on this, but welcomes someone else continuing with it.
People were so thrilled with the Hans' Colorspaces presentation that
they forgot to add it to the Etherpad notes:

Hans, I added the small test below to the report:

15) Colorspaces - Hans Verkuil

- Hans gave a presentation explaining colorspaces.

Feel free to fill in the blanks if needed. I'll then update the html
version of the report.

Btw, I uploaded all presentations people made available so far at:
http://linuxtv.org/downloads/presentations/media_summit_2014_DE/

I also added hyperlinks at for each presentation at the html report.

For those that did a presentation there and want to make the slides
available, please send me the notes.

Ricardo,

It would also be nice to add there a link to that amazing potato handling
machines using Video4Linux, if this is something that could be shared ;)

Regards,
Mauro
Hans Verkuil
2014-10-21 15:36:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mauro Carvalho Chehab
Em Tue, 21 Oct 2014 12:53:16 -0200
Post by Mauro Carvalho Chehab
http://linuxtv.org/news.php?entry=2014-10-21.mchehab
In the name of the organizing committee, I'd like to thank you all for
being there with us during those two days.
There were several good discussions that happened during the meeting,
aimed to improve even more the Linux media subsystem.
Also, it was agreed during the meeting that we'll try to reach an even
broader audience on the next events. So we're counting with all you
on our next year's event(s).
Thanks!
Mauro
-
NAME - EMAIL - ORGANIZATION
========
1) Configuration stores - Hans Verkuil
===================================
- Need to report which settings/controls were applied
- Drivers needs to be able to report full/limited Android CameraHAL v3 support
(full means full synchronization support)
- We probably need a mechanism to be able to remove (free) config stores
- Can we use APPLY(0) instead of CLOSE?
- Per buffer or per frame configuration? Note: there is no notion of frame IDs
yet in V4L2.
- Would be nice to be able to disable APPLY, perhaps a flag for the core similar
to HAS STORE
2) Android camera HAL v3 - Sakari Ailus
====================================
http://www.retiisi.org.uk/v4l2/foil/android-camera-hal-v3-v4l2.pdf
- Capture requests queued lead to returned buffers in order, best effort to make
per-buffer configuration apply correctly needed
- Capture requests/returned buffers do not map directly to QBUF/DQBUF because
multiple buffers in different formats may be produced from a single request.
Some outputs could be implemented in software, e.g. multiple YUV outputs when
hardware simply does not contain as many.
- Should statistical data be returned in a separate video buffer queue? Might be
associated via sequence number, probably separate frame ID better
- 3A library input: frame metadata, depends on sensor, might be in-frame or
out-of band. If possible, separate buffer queue prepared to get to it early.
- HAL v3 needs Start Of Frame and End Of Frame events
- If there is no hardware mechanism for synchronization, apply sensor settings
as soon as possible after SOF and hope for the best. It is possible to verify
the timing has been successful in the user space.
- Sensor settings and ISP settings applied at different points in time, as
sensor settings usally take effect on the following frame
- Sensors may implement all or parts of the ISP themselves. It may not be
feasible to implement hal v3 full profile for such sensors.
- Start of Exposure events not to be implemented in the kernel. HAL must
calculate the event time based on other available information, such as end of
frame (or start of frame event) and other frame timing parameters.
- Some metadata tags could be mapped to V4L2 (compound) controls, they are
associated with a single capture request. Some metadata tags (statistics) are
produced from video buffer queues. Other metadata tags originate from HAL.
- Needs a guarantee that a single capture request will produce all buffers
requested by it with the request's parameters, needs per-buffer configuration,
associating buffers with a certain frame.
- A working halv3 implementation for UVC (limited profile) would be nice to have
- A working halv3 implementation on top of some hardware (full profile) is
needed to test assumptions
- ISP configuration may be implemented by controls or via an output video buffer
queue
- V4L2: independent queues (possibly multiple video device nodes), frame
synchronization needed when queueing the buffers, drivers are expected to always
return those buffers, possibly with an error flag, HALv3: multiple streams are
synchronized via capture requests
- Requests may contain buffers for every queue or only some queues.
- All buffers captured as part of a request must originate from the same sensor
frame. Other behaviour is not allowed.
- All buffers have start of exposure timestamps (approximated by start of frame
timestamp - exposure time)
- Frames from different capture queues can be associated using sequence numbers.
- ISPs are typically connected to a fast bus, and mostly it's possible to
synchronise changing the configuration per frame reliably. Should this be
extended to sensors? In that case, the sensor driver would need timing
information from the ISP. Sensors are typically connected over a slow bus such
as i2c so error handling would also be needed. The alternative is to leave
sensor synchronisation up to the user space.
- Further discussion
- How are buffers and controls from different device nodes associated as a
single request by the driver?
- Applying parameters from sub-device nodes
3) DVB API improvements - Mauro Carvalho Chehab
============================================
- New ioctl needed for retrieving the available PLP (physical layer pipe)that
can be read back from frontend's detection. Eventually get_property might be
used, but it could be too big for that.
- How to support devices with multiple demodulators that could have a common
PES/SEC filter block dynamically shared between them? Currently, the API assumes
that each demod has a fixed number of filters.
- It is desired to add mmap() and DMABUF support. The best seems to use
videobuf2 for buffer delivery, but how to avoid V4L2 dependencies? It seems it
should reuse memops but not videobuf2-core, reimplement queue/dequeue, state
handling, see what should be shared.
- TBD: How to improve integration of DVB frontends, demuxes and CAM drivers with
other media components via the media controller.
- Make a more detailed list of requirements for DVB - to be done by the DVB
developers;
- Send patches for PLP table retrival by userspace - Hauppauge/PCTV;
- Send a proposal for DVB-C2 - Ralph Meltzler;
- After the above steps is completed, we should discuss between the DVB
developers about who will be doing what.
4) Media development process - Hans Verkuil
========================================
- Fixes are written for an upcoming release typically based on findings from rc1
- Fixes should get higher priority
- Fixes must be upstreamed by rc3
- Patches that go to the fixes tree are not applied to master. This is because
the fixes sent to Linus will reappear from upstream, eventually to master branch
as well.
- Use 'GIT FIXES' for urgent bug fixes (Hans will send V4L2 submitting patches
text (after updating) to Pawel for wiki inclusion)
- Consider github as git repo for better failover.
- Co-locating with other conferences creates schedule conflicts
- Too costly to move before/after conferences (bosses will only pay for the
meeting, not for the conference)
- Making the mini-summit open for all would be an interesting experiment.
- But we shouldn't charge for the mini-summit.
- Next year: kernel summit in South Korea, so the media mini-summit will be in
Korea as well.
5) V4L2 raw codec API - Pawel Osciak
=================================
- The current codec API is suitable for codecs which perform all the stages of
encoding or decoding.
- Newer codec hardware implementations expect the CPU to perform less computing
intensive parts of the codec.
- VA-API like model: codec split between user and kernel spaces
- Some vendors provide closed user space codec libraries. Yuck.
- Bit stream formats are vendor independent, so the parsing of the bit stream
should be as well.
- Processing must be performed per-slice. This allows lower latency.
- Decoding to be implemented in libv4l. Multiple hardware devices may benefit
from the stream parsing functionality this way.
- GStreamer plugins already implements stream parsing. License?
6) Multiple timestamps - Ricardo Ribalda
=====================================
- Some Industrial Machines require metadata about the state of the machine when
the image is taken
- When this data is small enough (~32 bits) and it is similar to a timestamp (ex.
encoder data) we might use the timecode struct, already part of vb2_buffer
- Sometimes the metadata can be much bigger. An example has been shown regarding
an optical grader of potatoes. In this sytem, the spinoflex (conveyor belt with
fingers) has a state of around 1000bits
- This information does not fit the event data structure and share the same
problems as the camera statistics, therefore common solutions should be used.
- The proposal of creating a new ioctl for this (GET_META) has been generally
rejected.
- A) Configuration stores are an option as well. A single array control could be
used for this.
- B)Video buffers could be used. This is very much analogous to sensor metadata
after all.
- Laurent pointed out that A single interface to pass statistics to the user
space is preferred, independently of the size of the statistics.
- If the data is transferred to the memory, video buffers are probably the right
solution.
- For 1000 bits, compound controls are very likely the best option.
- Image statistics of tens or hundreds of kilobytes should use a video buffer
queue.
- Hans will make sure that the configuration store can support this usercase
- We will define a generic fourcc for statistics
- Libv4l will be in charge of converting the vendor specific statistics into
this generic format
======
7) Runtime reconfiguration of pipelines - Chris & Laurent
======================================================
- Xilinx need to support adding any type of daughterboard to their FPGA
pipeline: userspace needs to load a DT overlay dynamically for that
daughterboard. Note that the Xilinx driver won't know which devices are on that
daughterboard since it is the customer/thirdparty that makes it.
- Partial reconfiguration: ideally only the IP blocks that will be replaced need
to be removed in the MC: this is complex.
- Can we make an initial implementation to just tear down everything and rebuild
it with the new IP instead of the old? Less flexible, but much easier to do
until we can change the MC on the fly.
- Option: perhaps just disable entities instead of deleting them. But it's a bit
of a hack, and we should just bite the bullet and add proper support.
- Result: implement everything tear down first. Later work on how to delete
entities on the fly.
- Create a virtual MC device driver: what should be there? - Hans Verkuil
- sensor, at least two DMA engines giving two different formats
- Bayer support?
- different input ports (csi/parallel), cropping/scaler block
- configurable pipeline (including m2m device)
- flash, lens
8) Hierarchical media devices - Philipp Zabel
==========================================
- Philipp gave a presentation about complex media devices that could be better
represented via hierarchical trees. The discussions about that happened
together with the next topic.
9) Highly reconfigurable hardware - Julien Beraud
==============================================
- 44 sub-devices connected with an interconnect.
- As long as formats match, any sub-device could be connected to any other
sub-device through a link.
- The result is 44 * 44 links at worst.
- A switch sub-device proposed as the solution to model the interconnect. The
sub-devices are connected to the switch sub-devices through the hardware links
that connect to the interconnect.
- The switch would be controlled through new IOCTLs S_ROUTING and G_ROUTING.
http://git.linuxtv.org/cgit.cgi/pinchartl/media.git/log/?h=xilinx-wip
10) libdvbv5 - Mauro Carvalho Chehab
================================
- Part of libv4l v1.6.0
- Most applications still use DVBv3 API.
- Contains MPEG-TS decoders for program information.
- Compilation options to choose different parts of the library to be built. Not
everyone needs everything.
- The user may want to use custom replacements for parts of the library,
especially for parsing tables like EPG.
- The library still needs the MPEG-TS parsers for channel parsing. If the
MPEG-TS parser isn't part of the library, the functionality would need to be
available elsewhere using the same interface.
- libdvbv5 license right now GPL, agreement on license change to LGPL exists
from all contributors.
11) DVB tuners - Mauro Carvalho Chehab
==================================
- Explained the old hybrid model and the new model used by the tuners and the
odds with the current approach
- It was also explained that I2C MUX is a need, in order to help fixing the
problems with suspend/resume inside the subsystem
- Some concerns arrised if the new model actually works or not for analog TV, as
currently there's no tuner using it for analog
- It was agreed that the new model is the way to go, but it requires a carefully
review, and changes should not be done on all tuners at once, but, instead, in
steps
12) Other DVB issues - Mauro Carvalho Chehab
========================================
- Better information on device capabilities is needed in the user space, as,
currently, there are very few bits available for DVB caps at fe_caps enum, used
by FE_GET_INFO. Also, some standards can have lots of options (ISDB-T has 28),
and reporting there to userspace using bits is actually not a good option.
- The main issue with fe_caps is that, currently, there are only two bits left,
and this is not enough to represent the current capabilities of
modern delivery system's frontends.
- Ralph reminded that there are DVB-C/C2 devices that only support automatic
bitrate detection, and he is even unsure if it is possible to retrieve the
detected bitrate from such frontends. So, we need a way to allow
"CAN_AUTO_SYMBOL_RATE". That's bad, as applications like w_scan may run several
times over the same symbol rates, and may actually be detecting the same
transponder several times.
- Complex delivery systems like ISDB-T have some combinations that aren't
very common, and some chipset providers decided to not implement (Mauro). For
example, mb86a20s frontend doesn't support guard interval equal to 1/32.
- The agreeded strategy is to write a new ioctl that, once the delivery system
is set, it will return what are the valid values/ranges that a given frontend
property can support. In order to optimize the drivers, the core could pre-fill
it with all that it is supported by a given delivery system, letting the driver
to override it, disabling the features that aren't supported.
- Mkruky proposed to add a new ioctl (FE_GET_PROPS_INFO - or something like
that) that would return all the valid values for a given property for the
current delivery system.
- Old DVBv3 APIs that weren't used anymore should be clearly documented as
deprecated
13) Dead pixels: Ricardo Ribalda
============================
- Position of dead pixels + classification of dead pixels (dead/lazy/others)
- Store this on a flash: common format?
- No problem with the dead pixel proposal, but it needs to be used upstream
somewhere before it can be used. Ricardo's driver is unlikely to be upstreamed.
Not sure if adding it to vivid is sufficent.
- Suggestion: omap3 should have it, try getting a beagleboard/bone + sensor and
implementing it there.
- sensor/module metadata: needs an RFC first.
14) Multiple selections - Ricardo Ribalda
=====================================
- Hans's patch "videodev2.h: add v4l2_ctrl_selection compound control type"
implements selection controls. This replaces the selection interface, and
existing drivers should be converted.
- Pad information missing from the RFC patchset.
- Multiple selections will not be available on selections interface.
- Hans stopped working on this, but welcomes someone else continuing with it.
People were so thrilled with the Hans' Colorspaces presentation that
15) Colorspaces - Hans Verkuil
- Hans gave a presentation explaining colorspaces.
Just one addition:

- The V4L2_QUANTIZATION_ALT_RANGE should be replaced by two separate
values: FULL_RANGE and LIM_RANGE. That is more explicit.

Regards,

Hans
Post by Mauro Carvalho Chehab
Feel free to fill in the blanks if needed. I'll then update the html
version of the report.
http://linuxtv.org/downloads/presentations/media_summit_2014_DE/
I also added hyperlinks at for each presentation at the html report.
For those that did a presentation there and want to make the slides
available, please send me the notes.
Ricardo,
It would also be nice to add there a link to that amazing potato handling
machines using Video4Linux, if this is something that could be shared ;)
Regards,
Mauro
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